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Linkmeister

Effing Sid Bream? I thought that was reserved for Bucky Dent.

Janelle

He won 8 Gold Gloves as a *left fielder*, and he was a left fielder because despite his speed, he couldn't cut it at center. and yes, effing Sid Bream.

Jaquandor

As a Pirates fan who saw his team's last winning season for twenty years end that night...yes. Fucking Sid Bream. (And that damned closer-less bullpen-by-committee that forced Leyland to try to ride a fading Doug Drabek just one...more...inning....)

Lance Mannion

Janelle, surely you're not dissing left fielders? Yaz was a left fielder!

Bob Muir

I believe it’s’ called the Baseball hall of fame and Museum and they are two separate entities. I don’t have a problem with Bond’s being in the museum – if memory serves the Black sox are in there as well, I have a large problem with the idea that Bonds should have a plaque in the hall of fame.
Baseball, when you get down to it, is not important – about the only time it had real historical impact was when Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier other than that – not really. As much as I love the game.
And because it’s not important you do and should be held to a higher standard (frankly I’d lie cheat and steal to save a friend’s life – I wouldn’t to win a softball game) than folks have in real life. It’s a game, and as it is a game how you play it matters. Bonds used the game for his own self aggrandizement and his lasting legacy is to cast doubt on the achievements of everybody else who played baseball in what has come to be known as the steroid era. He’s gotten his reward he, absent some major revelations and a massive change in how baseball is run, has his records; he won’t be erased like Lance Armstrong’s seven wins were. To suggest base ball honor that legacy with a plaque is a bit much. Seaver, Cobb, Mathewson, Ruth, Yaz, et al played the game, even Bob Uker and Marvelous Marv Thornberry played the game and in doing so honored it in its patent artificiality . Bonds used the game to become famous and make a lot of money. As I said he’s gotten his reward. Baseball owes him nothing.
No it’s not a religion or a temple – but it’s not a whorehouse either.

Lance Mannion

Bob, very well said, and in principle I agree with you, especially about Bonds' having been a selfish player. That's why I think the comparison with Ken Griffey Jr is so compelling. Griffey really did sacrifice himself to Cincinnati. But you're also making the character argument, and so what are you going to do about all the bad characters already in the Hall, starting with Cap Anson and A.G. Spalding? Then what about Kenesaw Mountain Landis, Enos Slaughter, and Dixie Walker? Not to mention Ty Cobb? (Joe DiMaggio hung out with gangsters. Ted Williams was kind of selfish. And Mickey Mantle wasn't exactly a paragon of virtue.) Also, you can't say the same things about Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, or Raphael Palmiero, so what's the case for keeping them out?

As I think I've said over the course of these several posts, I think what these guys did cast doubt only over their own records. I think players should go into the Hall based on their own records so what they did makes it hard to judge just how good they were. But it doesn't make it impossible to judge, unless you arbitrarily decide the steroids made them not better than they might have been if they hadn't used them but any good at all. Clemens and Bonds put in Hall of Fame careers before they started using.

This isn't really important, but Hall of Fame "gallery"---as it's officially identified on the museum maps---isn't any more separate from the museum than the gift shop. It's a great place, however you slice it, though. Have you been recently? If not, you should get up there! I wish I could go back this summer.

Bob Muir

haven't been in a While - the weekend Tom Seaver was inducted - induction weekend is crazy but worth it if (I was I was also there for Yaz and Johnny Bench's induction - long story about that trip - don't have time to go into it invovles Sahron Springs and Carlton Fisk's bat) -
I don't qutie thing I'm making a character jdugment here but I need to think it through - my feeling - and hell could be wrong here is that a lot of great players were rotten people - indeed I think you could create an impressive all star team out the worst people to play the game. However, and this could be utterly willfull so I need to think this through - there is a difference bewteen what happens outside the lines and what happens inside the white lines - that I feel is the important difference - Babe Ruth showing up hung over at a game wasn't as bad as what Hal Chase did to the sport stone cold sober. I could be just blowing smoke here but..well to be continued.

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