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Redstar

This is a great post. I'm having a blast too, and the better Clinton does, the more at peace I think I feel with the chance that she might not get the nom. Ironic, but I just want her to have fought as long and hard as possible. All this sh*t about her dropping out, etc. has been infuriating, and it's great to see her get the wins and support she needs and deserves. This is the most exciting election I've lived through yet.

Mike Schilling

If Hillary bringing up Wright and Farrakhan is a good test for Obama, then Obama should be talking about Vince Foster and FBI files and how Bill was just counseling that young woman with the big hair. You don't want the first time Hillary faces those questions to be in October.

Chase

As far as I can deduce, the only positive to Hillary remaining in the race is if you happen to also support the idea of a McCain presidency. 'Cause trust me, a polarized Democratic Party and a battered candidate (who already faces the uphill challenge of silent racism in America) don't stand a chance against a war-monger already crowned a "maverick" by the mainstream news media.

Lance

Chase, the party is not polarized. It's having a family argument over who's best. We'll all get over it by the time Obama makes what I'm sure will be a tremendous acceptance speech in Denver.

Mike, are you saying that Jeremiah Wright never said Goddamn America or are you saying that Hillary really did have Vince Foster killed?

Also, those things have been out there since she started running---look at what the Media Insiders focused on when the Clinton White House logs were released---but I doubt many of Hillary's supporters thought they were going to get through the election without that shit being brought up, while apparently a lot of Obama supporters still think he should be exempt from any sort of campaigning they think is negative.

Mike Schilling

Mike, are you saying that Jeremiah Wright never said Goddamn America or are you saying that Hillary really did have Vince Foster killed?

I'm pretty sure Hillary had nothing to do with Foster's death. I'm goddam sure than Obama didn't say "Goddam America". And I'm sure that Hillary knew damned well that Bill was providing more than words of wisdom.

Also, those things have been out there since she started running---look at what the Media Insiders focused on when the Clinton White House logs were released---but I doubt many of Hillary's supporters thought they were going to get through the election without that shit being brought up, while apparently a lot of Obama supporters still think he should be exempt from any sort of campaigning they think is negative.

I'm sure they'll be brought up by the GOP if Hillary gets the nomination, but I will lose much of my respect for Obama if he brings them up repeatedly and then uses them to attack her electability, likewise if he stresses her maiden name while holding up pictures of her sleazebag brothers. There's negative and then there's dirty, and the Clintons haven't stopped at negative.

jerry

Terrific post. It's infuriating the netroots too, and as a member of the netroots I think that's a very good thing. Kneejerk stupid bullying is kneejerk and stupid and bullying even when it is done by "our friends."

The worries that "we'll lose the millenials" makes me fear the "self-esteem movement". We've spent far too much time telling these kids how precious they are and never wrong. Now we find they won't take good honest jobs if someone may hurt their feelings, and if "their candidate" is defeated, we will lose them forever.

apostate

Great post. Agree.

Daniel

The "bitter story" wasn't inevitable. It came out as a result of a long sustained campaign. The longer we go, the more exhausted the candidates get, the more moments like that we're going to see.

Every dollar spent here is a dollar that's not going to be used against John McCain. And furthermore, McCain's able to duck even more media scrutiny than usual because of the electoral circus. This isn't a win-win situation.

Hillary's got every right to stay in this as long as she wants, but we are fast approaching the point where the utility of sustained competition just gives way to mistakes and exhaustion.

Huh

The best part of these last several posts is that it's really abundantly clear that you're a HRC supporter. Nothing more annoying than folks who dance around and pretend to be *undecided* when they are, in fact, completely committed to one candidate or the other.

At the risk of Tom W stopping by and mindlessly intoning that that anyone not supporting HRC must be sexist, I must say that your rationale for supporting her in that past post was surprisingly weak. Maintaining that she'll do the hard work and get the right answer even after she flubs one critical decision after another - the heath care debacle, voting for the AUMF without even reading the NIE and subsequent vote on Kyl Lieberman - is pretty hard to follow.

In any event, at least you're on record - so when you write, folks know where you stand.

greg in ak

while i agree that this battle is not destroying the democrats like some people fear, i am getting a little hungry. I'm hungry for a democrat to start beating the pooh out of mccain. i want to see his flop-flips and insane polices and crappy public speaking be taken out and whipped by the Dem candidate. the press is giving mcsame a free ride mostly and it will take a while (if ever) for them to start actually challenging him. every day of the dem primary means Abe Simpson can keep wandering around the country, not being trashed.

i want my beaten and broken repub nominee now...(stamps feet and whines)

zeke

God Damn America? Hell yeah, when it's warranted. As it happens, I don't believe she exists, but if she did I'm sure God would smite America for slavery and a legacy of racism and discrimination. I think she would damn us for, just for beginners, killing and maiming millions of people in the Spanish American War, the Vietnam War, the occupation of Iraq, our numerous illegal incursions into South America and Central America, not to mention our own homegrown genocide of the Native Americans. All damnable, wouldn't you agree, Lance?

So let's quit pretending to be shocked at Reverend Wright's words. Let's quit pretending we don't know just what he meant. Let's quit pretending that preachers aren't allowed some dramatic license in delivering hard truths in the form of sermons.

And finally, let's quit pretending that Hillary Clinton, in her heart of hearts, takes any umbrage at either Wright's remarks, or at Obama's continued membership in Wright's church.

lina

Now that it has gone on this long, it's probably a good idea to see it through until all the primary races are finished in early June. Then, when the last primary vote is tallied, Michigan and Florida delegates should be divided 50/50, and the candidate that comes up short on elected delegates should drop out of the race and put her/his support behind the winner of the delegate count. The supers can get him/her to the magic number at the convention.

If the circular firing squad goes on through August, the idea that McCain is "independent" will harden and he will win in November.


David Parsons

I don't think that anyone is shocked at Reverend Wright's words. I've said /far/ worse about this country, and I'm a privileged white male. But that's not going to stop the press from beating up on it, because even though Mr. Obama has the advantage of not being a Clinton, he still suffers from the fatal flaw of being a Democrat, no matter how many Republican talking points he tries to coopt.

Be /very/ thankful that this has come up in the primary and that the press loathes Ms. Clinton. It's going to be much worse in the general election, and there will be no fallback candidate if Mr. Obama's campaign can't handle that kind of racism at that time.

Lance

Daniel: Every dollar spent here is a dollar that's not going to be used against John McCain.

But Daniel every dollar being spent in the primaries IS a dollar being spent against McCain. Both Obama and Clinton are all over the newspapers and TV's, they are out there shaking hands and kissing babies, and speaking in front of HUGE crowds that they don't have to manufacture. They are rallying new voters and cementing loyalties. The fall campaign has already started for the Democrats.

This is why I think it was not a good move for Obama to cut Florida and Michigan out. I think he'd have done well in both states.

Meanwhile, McCain wanders around, ignored except by the Insider Media, which has to cover him, and political junkies like us.

And based on both Clinton's and Obama's ability to raise money and the fact that McCain is on his knees begging for pennies, I'd say cash for the fall won't be a problem.

Huh: The best part of these last several posts is that it's really abundantly clear that you're a HRC supporter...I must say that your rationale for supporting her in that past post was surprisingly weak.

Well, I've never tried to keep it a secret that I'm supporting Hillary. As for the weakness of my rationale being surprising? I thought that's what I've been saying, but just to make it clearer, my support for Clinton is based on familiarity, geographic happenstance, and historical accidents---Four years ago, I fully expected that in 2008 I'd voting for John Kerry AGAIN. After November, I thought I'd be voting for Al Gore AGAIN, then finally I thought I'd be voting for John Edwards. I've never been anti-Obama, just a little more pro-Hillary. I'm going to have no problem switching my allegiance to Obama and no trouble working up enthusiasm for him.

greg in ak: i want my beaten and broken repub nominee now...(stamps feet and whines)

greg, I've been doing my best to help get the ball rolling. Would it make you feel better if I wrote another Maverick and Commander post?

actor212

I'll go you one better, Lance.

I think Hillary should be tougher on Barry. There's stuff out there...like Nadhmi Auchi and Aiham Al-Sammarrae, that the GOP will use to make Obama seem like he's in the pocket of the insurgents in Iraq.

Do you remember Willie Horton? Gennifer Flowers?

Neither of them was raised first in the general election. Both were raised first in the primaries (by Al Gore, of all people!)

Did it give the GOP ammo? You bet. So Al Gore should have been out there hammering Dukakis and Clinton hard, much harder, to give them a taste of what to look out for.

In this regard, Hillary's strong case about having had her laundry rummaged thru is so spot on as to be a major positive point that SDs ought to be looking closely at.

David Wilford

She may do well enough in the upcoming primaries to convince Party leaders and the super-delegates to let it go to the convention floor.

Not going to happen, because there's no good reason for the Democratic Party to let it wait for three more months when the focus has to be McCain and the GOP, not further intra-party squabbling.

David Parsons

“I think Hillary should be tougher on Barry”

Now, I prefer Ms. Clinton to Mr. Obama, but his first name is Barack. If he wanted to follow the other famous Barry, I'd think he'd call himself that. It seems overly familiar to call a man by a nickname when he hasn't expressed a desire to be called by that name.

Bob

“Yes, I understand that the Clinton team's attempts to overturn the rules they had agreed to have been in bad faith. But the Obama team's refusal to go along isn't motivated by principle either….This hasn't been a case of one side begging for permission to cheat while the other makes a disinterested defense of the rules for the rules' own sake. This was a struggle between two groups of opportunists working for their own advantage”
Amazing. Two candidates agree to a sanction, later one changes her mind and the other continues to accept the original agreement and that’s proof that both are opportunists. Wow.
Another factor to consider in all the FL/MI back and forth is from the moment the punishment was decreed both organizations changed their strategies. They didn’t continue running their campaigns exactly as they had before. Counting the existing vote or holding a re-vote will most likely serve to reward Clinton at Obama’s expense.
But hey, if your rallying cry is “Clinton or Nothing! (McCain 08!!)” I guess tying and untying knots while pointing out the other guy probably knows how to tie a knot is acceptable.

Avedon

The "bitter story" wasn't inevitable. It came out as a result of a long sustained campaign. The longer we go, the more exhausted the candidates get, the more moments like that we're going to see.

Yeah, right, because McCain and the corporate media would never have done that.

Both of your candidates still suck, dammit. They could be campaigning against McCain right now if they were smart, but they'd rather pummel each other.

And please give it up with the bullshit about how only Clinton has been fighting dirty. Obama has done some very stinky things; his supporters just choose not to notice them. They really do both suck.

calling all toasters

Shorter Lance:

Operation Chaos--it's alllllll good!

Rana

I just want to know one thing: those of you who are tired of the primary - have you voted yet?

MsFeasance

Um..what rules is Hillary asking to break? Have you actually READ the rules? With a hat tip to zuzu, of course.

MsFeasance

This is also more to the point on that.

Bob

MsFeasance: Yes I have actually READ the RULES. In August 2007 the candidates agreed to the sanctions against the two states. Clinton didn't say another word about the issue until after she realized the grossly incompetent campaign she had run (overspent early, ignored caucuses, had no plan in place for anything after Super Tuesday) had, surprisingly enough, failed to procure her the nomination. Go figure. Then she and her supporters became good little Patrick Henry's making stirring speeches about every vote counting. Fair enough. Let's start with an honest tally of the actual popular vote in caucuses, which adds somewhere between 1 -2 million total votes to Obama’s lead. Second, unlike Clinton, Obama actually ran a smart campaign based on a 50 state strategy. In other words, from the moment he AND Clinton signed on the DNC memorandum, he altered his campaign to reflect the new realities on the ground.
So, in summary, there is nothing illegal about reinstating MI and FL, just as there is nothing illegal about superdelegates overturning the will of the majority of the voters in the Democratic primary but if either is done and Obama is seen as having lost through legal but unethical manipulation say goodbye to the Democratic coalition.
On the other hand, those of you whose rallying cry is “Clinton at All Costs” will get what you want. Hope you enjoy the 10 weeks between Denver and Nov 4 cause it’s the last time for a long time anyone will pay any attention to any Democratic candidate for president.

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