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mark

Good post. My old college buddy Barry Fanaro wrote some good stuff on The Golden Girls.

J.

Well commented, sir. I agree also, the heat isn't there, and as much as I'd like to like this show, it isn't singing to me. But I think this show will truly jump the shark when they have a "bioterrorist" hoax incident. Hey, all the other shows (Chicago Blue, Alias, ER) have tried it. If he falls back on that chestnut, I'm done.

Do you watch "The Unit" on Tues? The Mamet writing is good when it's limited to combat. The "Bored and Desperate Housewives" B-plots are wastes of time and distract from the combat missions. If Mamet focused on the men and resisted the urge to put his wife in the show (although she's cute and talented), it would be much better.

merciless

Spot-on again, Lance. Sigh. What I can't figure out about this show is what the network saw in it to begin with. It's entirely about Sorkin, how cool he is, how Kristen Chenowith is (or at least should be) really sorry that she ditched him, and how much everyone loves it when he explains things to them.

TWW was not like this, at least not most of the time. Drama ran up against comedy, and then bashed sidelong into romance or tragedy. The shows you mentioned (you forgot Six Feet Under, holy crap is it good) did all those things all the time. They spoke of humanity, of life with all the good and bad, and made you believe it.

A huge poster of Woody Allen doesn't make Matt more human, it makes him even more prententious. A little girl imploding as an executive doesn't make Jordan appealing, it makes her weak and embarrassing. And I really have no clue what all the Christian stuff is about.

Well, I could go on like this all day, but I'll spare you. I look forward to the live blog tonight. Maybe they'll start giving Brad Whitford some lines.

Dusty

Re "... the old opposites attract chestnut that like all the other variations misses the point of the model they're all working from---Sam and Diane could never get together because they would wind up killing each other if they did," the opposites thing can work if the opposite characteristics are shown to be all surface, with a more substantive similarity lurking below. Which was not the case with Sam and Diane, who were dissimilar above and below the surface, but arguably the case with a pairing like Dave and Matty on Moonlighting. (That show just didn't have any idea of what to do with them after they put them together, which is somewhat baffling given that The Thin Man is just sitting right there.)

Matt and Harriet are actually extremely similar on the surface, with one major area of distinction lurking below, the question of their religion. Leaving aside the fact that the characters as conceived and executed have no chemistry whatsoever, unless she's suddenly going to become not-Christian or he's going to stop being such an insufferable bore about her Christianity, their relationship is clearly a nonstarter, except in that it allows Sorkin many opportunities to make reductive observations about the culture wars. It's like when the main character gets shot in the first minutes of the episode. You know they're not really going to kill him off, so there's no real tension. Matt and Harriet are never going to make it and, on top of that, their little dance is humorless and charm-free, so there's nothing in it for the audience.

J. brought in Mamet, who obviously does a similar thing as Sorkin (and Tarantino, really) in terms of having his actors deliver their lines with a minimum of affect. But, with Mamet, it's an outgrowth of a whole philosophy of Meisner-influenced drama rather than an efficient way of forcing the audience to pay attention to the writer above all else. And Mamet is far more skilled than Sorkin at using dialogue to create character as well as advance plot, but the technique still creates the illusion of smartness for the viewer, which Sorkin himself may confuse with actual smartness.

In the interests of adding to the list: NewsRadio, Freaks & Geeks, The Rockford Files, The Bob Newhart Show and Newhart.

Victoria

Why, Mister Mannion, we seem to have connected in some strange way over this Sorkin business, for I am Katewyn and I am Victoria.

She's my daughter…She's my sister... (slap) She's my daughter...
(slap ) My sister, my daughter. (slap) She's my sister AND my daughter!

Sigh. What can I say? Sometimes I forget where I am.

Where was I? Oh, yes. While I would hardly challenge you to a duel on any of the intelligent points you make, I do have these reactions:

Yes, yes, I know what you mean about the similarity in the way people talk – to a point. But it’s worth noting that really good actors love Sorkin’s scripts, they go on and on about the deep pleasure of acting those roles – and, I’m sorry, but any writer who can serve up gifts to good actors is providing – at the very least – a decent space for making a character breathe.

He gives them something they can embody – and in that, make the characters distinct. Toby was different from Leo, who was different from Donna… Dana was different from Jeremy, who was different from Isaac…

If you think about it, Sorkin writes about people who work (Work – how you go about it, how you negotiate the community of co-workers - is Central for Sorkin) in hermetically sealed environments – military, White House, TV studio; in other words, places where people tend to start talking the same.

**Sorkin, fire thyself** seems over the top, given that what he really needs is a trusted assistant whose sole job it is to catch repeaters, those sorkinisms which, overused, can become annoying and, worse, obstruct suspension of disbelief.

I am thinking here of director John Korty. Korty directed Jack Lemmon in Alex and the Gypsy. In one of their first meetings, Korty said, “I’ve been watching all your movies and I’ve made a list of 22 Lemmonisms, gestures and reactions you tend to use. How about if, for this role, I let you know any time I see you falling back on one of those?” Lemmon, to his credit, seized on this opportunity to drop all familiars.

Sorkin could invite someone to follow him around with such a list, in the spirit of extending his bag of tricks. And yes, it would be healthy for him to trust and empower others to lay words on a page.

As for the fine sample from MASH, here’s my question: how many years had that show been on the air by the time they wrote the GOODBYE, RADAR script? Were they writing new characters with actors fresh to them? Or were they writing characters long defined and embodied by certain actors in a firmly-established imaginary world? Makes a massive difference.


Karmakin

No no NO! I watched the episode last night and that's NOT what happens. What DOES happen is much better.

I agree 'tho that the overall story arcs are weak. But I continue to love this show not for the big plot (Heroes does that for me), but for the little character interaction, and the little stories.

The little stories. I like that.

In tonight's episode, it's Matt dealing with the remnents of the writing staff. He brings in an experienced writer to help them. That's the real story of the episode. That's the interest.

That's what I enjoyed.


Jaquandor

Karmakin has it right: the "gunman takes cast member hostage" thing isn't even close to what happens. That's not even a good metaphor for what happens. One subplot does involve a gunman taking people hostage, but the way it works is really nicely done.

I've actually liked several of the recent episodes, and this one is especially good, really. I laughed out loud at several points, it's got that deft flashback-thing going on that Sorkin does really well when he's on, there is NO boring Matt-and-Harriet stuff going on, et cetera. Sorkin seems to be backing off the "TV writer as messianic genius" crap and the "meditations on blue state versus red state" crap the last two weeks, and just telling interesting stories about what happens behind the scenes of a teevee show.

Lance

Jacquandor, No gunman? Phew! I was just going by what it says on the NBC website. I'm looking forward to the episode. As I keep saying, I want this show to last and be good.

Katewyn/Victoria/Evelyn Mulwray: As for the fine sample from MASH, here’s my question: how many years had that show been on the air by the time they wrote the GOODBYE, RADAR script?

That's a good point. That's from Season 8. But I think if you go back you'll find that the "voices" of the characters were established a lot earlier, within their first seasons on the show. BJ and Potter didn't appear until Season 4, but they appeared already talking like themselves. And the way the voices play off each other doesn't depend on our knowing the characters. I used that excerpt as an example of Ken's writing, though, to show that he has done what Sorkin wants to do and so he'd fit the show.

J., I can't believe I never heard of The Unit! I'm going to check it out. It's on Tuesdays?

And J, Dusty, Victoria, Jacquandor, et al, you all are audtioning for guest host blogger, you know that, right? I expect notes from all of you in my email volunteering.

charlie

Good points, all, but methinks you idoilize the Golden Years of Professional Television Writing a bit too much. Sorkin can be more talented; he has an cadence, a built in iambic pentameter which can try to raise television to poetry.

But as big a problem as character and plot is casting; it has been bad. 50% of the cast is miscast. Amanda Peet. Sarah Paulson. The guy in the lobster suit. The cute girl. The Brit girl. The black guy who isn't funny. The other black guy who is funny. Sarah Paulson.

That being said, Matthew Perry and Steven Weber are having a lot of fun.


Perhaps you are right, they are the living zombies of Sorkin's id...

Dusty

Re Victoria's post:

Yes, yes, I know what you mean about the similarity in the way people talk – to a point. But it’s worth noting that really good actors love Sorkin’s scripts, they go on and on about the deep pleasure of acting those roles – and, I’m sorry, but any writer who can serve up gifts to good actors is providing – at the very least – a decent space for making a character breathe.

I don't actually think he does leave them room to breathe. I'm not saying actors don't respect his writing or want to work for him or that they're dissembling when they praise his work in interviews promoting the product that employs them and that they had hoped would be a prestige project to be involved in. I'm only speaking as an audience member, but I've never found Sorkin's writing to be particularly spacious in terms of the license he leaves his actors due to the specificity of the rhythms of his speech and the lack of affect he (or Schlamme or both) requires.

Nor have I found Sorkin's writing to be particularly demanding from an acting point of view, in that one only has to get the basic style down and then recite the new lines in that style. It produces a level of consistency, but there's an assembly-line feel to it. The work goes into producing that first model and then all you do is stamp it out.

If you think about it, Sorkin writes about people who work (Work – how you go about it, how you negotiate the community of co-workers - is Central for Sorkin) in hermetically sealed environments – military, White House, TV studio; in other words, places where people tend to start talking the same.

Certainly people who work together in a given profession or office may eventually fall into a similar pattern of speech, although outsiders would not and a question to be asked about Sorkin's dialogue is whether he incorporates enough variation in those patterns to communicate that certain characters belong to a different community or even that they wish to belong to the main community and simply don't (Ricky and Ron, possibly Jack and Jordan). Are the variations that are present coming from Sorkin's pen or are they coming from actors who have not been completely Sorkinized and still retain some semblance of individuality? I often found guest performers on TWW to be more compelling than the regulars for the latter reason.

Beyond the question of whether it's legitimate to have all characters speak in a similar fashion, as a dramatist, one still must differentiate the characters somehow, particularly when one doesn't allow the actors to do the heavy lifting in that regard. As Lance noted, Sorkin often uses blocks of expository material to substitute for character development, as in Harriet's tiresome biographical sketch earlier in the season.

Howard Hawks was also preoccupied with the way people worked, but he used their actions and how and how well they performed those actions to differentiate the characters. Sorkin rarely lets us see how these people work and, from what I have seen, I'm not convinced they are as good at their jobs as the show seems to think they are.

Mike Schilling

The Honeymooners.

Sergeant Bilko. (That was the debate between Freud and Spinoza!)

Taxi, at moments that were too few and far between.

Frank

Lance,

Your comments are mostly spot-on, but I have to disagree with this statement:

"The big problem is that Sorkin has no idea how to structure a story and tell it in 60 minutes."

There are some West Wing episodes that are amazingly constructed, self-contained 60-minute (or, rather, 42-minute) stories.

One that springs to mind is "Noel," in Season 2, where Josh finds out he has Post-traumatic Stress Disorder. The whole episode features Josh and the psychiatrist played by Adam Arkin sitting accross from each other at a conference table trying to get to the root of Josh's recent breakdown in the Oval Office. Through a series of flashbacks (okay, admittedly an overused Sorkin trope) we get walked through the last three weeks leading up to this meeting.

But the whole thing works like a very tightly-constructed one act play, and could probably have been staged as such. It would have stood on its own even without the flashbacks.

I haven't seen much of that on Studio 60 yet, but hopefully its coming.

Lance

Frank, I remember that episode very well, mostly for Adam Arkin's performance, but still, it was a good one. Probably I should have written something like, "Sorkin has forgotten how to structure a story and tell it in 60 minutes." But I noticed this at the TV.com episode guide. Sorkin wrote the script for Noel, but the story is credited Peter Parnell who worked as a writer, executive story editor, and co-producer on The West Wing.

Sorkin had a co-writer for last night's episode too.

Suggests Sorkin is better when he's collaborating.

maurinsky

I never watched The West Wing, so if I went by this show alone, I would have to say Sorkin sucks. How many of the plotlines are from his own life? All the characters sound the same, they all talk too much (except for Ron, who's gone), and it's all tell, tell, tell and no show. All talk, no walk.

We know Harriet is a gifted comedienne because....well, not from anything we've seen on screen, but only because everyone tells us how gifted she is. We know Matt is a brilliant writer because....well, all the stuff he's written that we've seen has pretty much sucked, so again, we have to rely on others.

The only two characters that are well drawn are Cal and Jack. The rest of them all seem like they are puppets standing in place for Sorkin.

And great TV writers: Joss Whedon gets my top vote. On the occasions when one of his characters said something out of character, it was jarring, and you noticed it.

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