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Laertes

The point I took away from Gilliard was that if Kos had pulled the ad, this would have been a very public, very loud, crisp smack upside the head of his advertisers. You could see how that would cost him more than one ad. "Yeah, we took a chance advertising on this liberal blog once, but you know those liberals. Always getting their frilly white panties in a twist about this or that. All we got for it was a PR black eye. You don't wanna do that."

Sure, Kos is being a belligerent prick. I don't care. In his shoes, I'd have run the ad too. And if I was having a really bad day, I might've responded as poorly as he did to the criticism, though I like to hope I'd have done better, maybe with something on the order of "I don't think the ad is offensive, and I'm not going to pull it." Firm and to the point, without throwing gasoline on the fire.

But I'm not Kos, and nobody else is either. I'm gonna keep reading him, and I'm not going to make a public show of holding my nose while I do it either. DailyKos is what it is, and this regrettable incident hasn't changed a thing.

One hopes that our circular firing squad gets tired soon and points the guns outward again soon.


Laertes

BTW, I love your blog. Great blogroll, too. You've led me to some interesting people. Thanks.

res publica

"Sure, Kos is being a belligerent prick. I don't care. In his shoes, I'd have run the ad too."

Umm....as I think everyone has pointed out at great length, the controversy here isn't really about the ad. It's also not about Kos being "mean" or whatever. It's about his implicit dismissal of feminist concerns (as well as his fairly explicit scorn for "the women's studies set"). What has come to light in this discussion is that a lot of presumably progressive men are actually fairly regressive around women's issues when the chips are down. That's a sad thing to discover, but it's also an extremely important discussion that needs to be had.

Everyone understands this. They keep trying to bring it back to people being "unreasonable" about the ad because Kos (and several others) made MAJOR assholes out of themselves in their response to what was in truth a very minor and completely reasonable point about two pin-up dolls pie-wrestling on a major liberal blog. Some people are very eager for us to point and laugh at the hairy-legged Andrea Dworkin wannabees, and to quickly avert our eyes from Kos and company lest we notice that they've shown their asses to God and everybody in broad daylight.

john @ blogenlust

Steve's ability to miss a point, and whine about it, rivals a lot of Republicans I know.

Shakespeare's Sister

One hopes that our circular firing squad gets tired soon and points the guns outward again soon.

I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I'll point my guns outward once I don't need to defend myself against my own alleged allies anymore, how about that?

As long as those who are ostensibly on "our side," such as the subject of Lance's post, continue to do things like deliberately miscontrue my position to make his job as Kos' attack dog easier (since my post never called for Kos to remove the ad), I wouldn't hold your breath. Unless the guy's functionally illiterate, there's no excuse for that kind of nonsense.

I don't pick fights, but I'm not afraid of the fray if someone's clearly gunning for a tussle.

Kevin

I'm not a Democrat, nor do I self-identify as a liberal or as a progressive. I'm a long-time moderate Independent who has yet to run across anyone anywhere who dislikes the Bush clan, or NeoCons/TheoCons for that matter, any more than I do. Just so ya know where I'm coming from... For at LEAST the next 3.5 years, ya'll and I have a great deal in common. Not to mention the fact that I'm a huge fan of Howard Dean...

This dust-up about Kos strikes me as absurd. I see temper tantrums being thrown on both sides of it. And despite the denials, it is about the damn ad. If that ad had never been run, this thread wouldn't exist. So, as far as I'm concerned it's intellectually dishonest to say that it's not about the damn ad.

What bugs me the most about all of this is that from my ringside seat this all boils down to PC conformist crap.

Why is it that when Republicans apply a litmus test to moderate GOPers, thereby thwarting the occasional Congressional Dem strategy, it's roundly criticized. But, when Dems are applying litmus tests to each other suddenly it's the most friggin' important thing in the world?

Why is it that when TheoCons try to impose their values on the unwilling it is roundly criticized by the Left. But, when the segments of the Left are trying to impose their values on the unwilling it is suddenly the most important thing in the world?

I don't get it. I really don't.

No need to ask why I'm not a member of either Party or why I don't self-identify with either ideology...

Anyway... continue on with the circular firing squad. Y'all clearly enjoy it...

Lance

Kevin, the ad ran on a lot of liberal webpages, many run by women who are not angry at Kos. It's not the ad.

I didn't care about the ad. Or about Kos' initial reaction, to tell the truth. I got in it because of what I see as an attempt by one group of bloggers to tell another group what they can and can not get mad about, who they can and cannot criticize, and what issues they are supposed to think are important.

Who died and made Kos king?

Kos blew off the Downing Street Memo at first. He's also blown off the voting fraud in Ohio. He's tried to marginalize bloggers who have taken on both issues. It's not about the ad, not for me.

As for the circular firing squad---the whole idea assumes that blogs are way more important than they are, that people are paying attention to them to see what the Democrats are up to, and that whatever bloggers do is what the Party's doing.

This will blow over in another day or two. We can afford to spend some time on it. No one's paying attention to it but other bloggers. The whole rest of the world is talking about Michael Jackson.

Kevin

"Who died and made Kos king?"

Lance, with all due respect... you guys have.

I don't read Kos. The overwhelming majority of what I learn about Kos is from other bloggers telling me via posts and comments.

Take away all those who read and comment and blog on every nuance of what he has to say and Kos is nobody. Just another living soul out of billions...

Who died and made Kos king?

WyldPirate

"I didn't care about the ad. Or about Kos' initial reaction, to tell the truth. I got in it because of what I see as an attempt by one group of bloggers to tell another group what they can and can not get mad about, who they can and cannot criticize, and what issues they are supposed to think are important.

Who died and made Kos king?

Kos blew off the Downing Street Memo at first. He's also blown off the voting fraud in Ohio. He's tried to marginalize bloggers who have taken on both issues. It's not about the ad, not for me."

Question for you. Kevin. Who the hell are you to tell Kos what to write about or care about? Thhere are dozens of issues liberals care about/ There are no carved tablets anywhere saying that all liberals or all Dems have to care about the same thing.

The poster above you was right--the issue was blown out of proportion and is PC chickenshit.

Why don't you go read Kos's post when he sounded off about the issue? He thinks the general issue of the ad being offensive is petty. That's his perogative.

He also admitted he was intemperate with his sweeping generalization of the "women's studies movement" and conceded that that specific criticism was a fair point.

Lance

Wyld, the poster above was Kevin. I'm Lance Mannion. I read Kevin's comment. I read Kos's reaction and his apology. You didn't read my post, not closely enough. Did you read my first posts on the matter? Doesn't sound like it.

Nobody is telling Kos what he ought to blog about. He was telling other bloggers not to bother with the DSM or the voting fraud. If he doesn't want to deal with them because, as you say, there are other important issues and he'd rather focus on some of them instead, that's his choice. But it's the other bloggers' choice too. He doesn't respect their choice and more or less has tried to bully people away from the issues .

It's my choice if I want to focus on this issue. It's your choice to read it or not, care or not care. But it seems to me that every defense of Kos includes 1. a pretense of not caring while using belligerent and angry language to tell other people they are caring too much---you'd figure if someone didn't care, they wouldn't bother to comment, let alone get all hot and testy about it---and 2. insisting that it's other people trying to boss Kos around while being, in fact, in the middle of telling someone (me, in this case, Shakespeare's Sister in the insistence that provoked me into writing my posts on the subject)what and what not to blog about.

I think I'm done with this issue. The next 5 posts I'm planning have nothing to do with it. But who knows. I may think of something else I feel a need to say. My choice. Read it or don't. That's your choice. Use my comments to tell me I'm all wet if you think I am. That's what the comments are here for.

Lance

Kevin,

Well, not me. I've done no crown polishing for him. I'm pretty sure that in the 9 months I've been doing this, yesterday's post was the first time I've quoted him. Haven't linked to him more than a handful of times either.

It's nothing personal. There are just too many other big name bloggers who I've found more helpful or interesting.

Michael Berube is kind of my Bonnie Prince Charlie, although lately I've considered switching loyalties to Ezra Klein. I see him as Prince Hal just after he's cast aside Falstaff. Apologies to Jesse Taylor if he feels cast in he Falstaff role by this analogy.

But if Kos is anybody's king, it looks like he's in the process of being deposed.

Kevin

"But if Kos is anybody's king, it looks like he's in the process of being deposed"

He may well be. And if so, I for one won't lose any sleep over it. Nor would it be even remotely personal, as you say. To paraphrase one line out of Kos' initial comment about the ad snit... There are other deserving bloggers out there who could use the patronage. I happen to agree with him fully on that point. As it sounds like you do too.

One good thing about all of this Kos/ad thing, as distasteful as it's been for me, is that I got exposed to some new really good blogs. I'd never heard of you or your blog before yesterday. But, I like what I've seen. Enough so that I just added you to our first tier blogroll.

That's not a fishing expedition for a reciprocal link. I'm just making the age old observation that every cloud has a silver lining... if one chooses to look for it.

Cheers

dutchie

I left Kos long ago for the sort of crap that's going on now. The ad was stupid but I've seen it on loads of sites and didn't give it a damn thought. But, Kos' royal dismissal of readers and one would think "allies" concerns? Jackassery. Complete jackassery.

Who made him king? Good question. I've asked it myself long before this. He sounds like the Democratic nanny who is praying that the DLC calls and offers him a job because he's so *reasonable*

Yep, as an old friend said when I asked him about Kos a while back: "Young Republicrat!"

Thanks Lance for doin' what you do everyday. Wolcott was right about you.

Shakespeare's Sister

And despite the denials, it is about the damn ad.

I saw that ad on three different sites other than Kos', including HaloScan, which I use as my comments provider. If it were about the ad, I would have dropped HaloScan and wouldn't have singled out Kos.

Of course, I suppose people who will continue to assert that I'm a liar about my motivations wouldn't hesitate to suggest I have no integrity, either.

The Heretik

Steve Gilliard can not come to the Barbeque.

Roxanne

As someone who knows a thing or two about the ad game, I have to agree with you on this, Lance. A problem for blogs and bloggers is there is no wall the way there's a wall in bigger media. Sometimes that wall serves to protect those who generate editorial content as much as as it protects the reader from undue influence of the advertiser on that content. That's all I can write without violating my own conflict of interest policy.

hello

wow. a male liberal blogger who isn't chastising me for being an uppity bitch. who isn't analyzing me as sexually repressed.
AND who isn't telling to sit my ass down and shut the fuck up.

you know, the kind of stuff rush would tell me.

you're a keeper.


KathyF

I don't think Kos is a nice boy. Someone on Rox's site posted the link, and it pretty much confirms what others have told me. One of my friends got into an email conversation with him, in which he pretty much blew off her concerns about intellectual property rights the same way he blew off his readers' complaints about the ad.

It's more than just having a bad day.

Frankly there is too much content out there for me to want to sponsor writers with bad manners, especially when clicking on their site only feeds their habit. Sounds like he's overwhelmed by the fame anyway, so we really should "depose" him for his own good.

hello

And despite the denials, it is about the damn ad. If that ad had never been run, this thread wouldn't exist. So, as far as I'm concerned it's intellectually dishonest to say that it's not about the damn ad.

no, the tbs show was being discussed in the diaries even before that ad ran. what added fuel to the fire, what blew this up from a minor issue into a major one was when kos dismissed the issue as coming for the "women's studies set", therefore irrelevant.

fwiw, i never complained about that ad. i never advocated for it to be pulled. i only spoke up after seeing men be dismissive of women bringing it up as issue. kos essentially said the ad was staying and that the women and their concerns be damned. or as lindsay so succinctly pointed out, men asserted their male privilege. men were putting their foot down so there was no point to making a case out of it. end of discussion.

you see, that ad was valued more than the women on the blog. now where i come from, people are more important than a stupid ad.

JDC

From Brian Lamb's April 10, 2005, Q&A interview with Moulitsas:

LAMB: And so, what kind of an advertiser – give us some examples of what’s on there?

MOULITSAS: Most of the advertisers right now, since it’s not a political year, are issue groups, people who are fighting the Bush agenda, people who are selling, say, partisan tee-shirts and bumper stickers, and that sort of thing.

So, it’s a very partisan group of advertiser, people who are trying to reach partisan readers.

So, one of the things that a blog really does, and I think is very effective in, is that it allows – what you get in a blog, essentially, is you get these affinity groups, right. You have people who are really interested in one particular topic, be it politics. And if you’re talking about politics, divided into libertarians and conservatives and liberals.

You can have sports blogs. You can have technology blogs.

And what it does is, these people are really passionate about that subject, and advertisers really have an extremely targeted group of people to reach. So there’s where the value I think comes.

It’s not Yahoo! news or Google news, where it could be absolutely just anybody coming in to do that kind of advertising. And you hope that you get some targeted people, people who line up with what you’re advertising.

With blogs you know exactly what the audience is into. And if you have a product that really sells to that audience – in my case, political campaign or partisan tee-shirts, anti-Bush DVDs – if you have that kind of product, it’ll do really well.

And it’s the same for, say, the conservative sites, but on the flip side, right. I mean, if you have an anti-Hillary Clinton video, you know that some of the conservative blogs are going to attract the kind of audience that will do really well for your product.

patrick

Shorter Steve Gilliard:
Being a whore is hard work. And it doesn't pay to be too picky.

hello

good catch, jdc.

hello

ha ha, patrick

gilliard whining about 80 hour weeks blogging: "you just don't understand how hard it is."

i bet.

yes, it's hard work getting off on soft porn.

not that there is anything wrong with that!

Elayne Riggs

This is one reason why so many bloggers are against the idea of running ads on one's blog, or trying to Make Money Fast by begging your readers to support your hobby after, like Steve Gilliard, you decide to quit your well-paying job and devote yourself to blogging full-time insisting that other people give you money for it. Strange things happen to bloggers once they start taking money for their hobby. Certain blinders crop up whenever their penchant for hyper-capitalism is called into question. And their readers find out things they wish they hadn't, such as Kos' repeated tendency to dismiss the legitimate concerns of half the population.

I've been blogging for almost three years, and I have NEVER SPENT A SINGLE PENNY to blog. Blogger is free. Haloscan is free. Buzzet (to which I post pictures) is free. Nobody needs to spend money to blog; therefore, nobody has any right to ask others for monetary support for their blog.

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