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Wow very enlightening, if Connecticut doesn't dump him next then shame on them.

I always loved that bumpersticker: >> "W & Iraq?" /or/ "Bill & Monica?" << and both elements sit on each of the scales of justice.

I've never understood why the Democrats gave him the power that he has in the first place - or why he's still considered a Democrat, given that he had to run a a member of the "Connecticut for Lieberman Party" (! How's THAT for vanity?) to run at all.

There are times when party discipline is a bad thing, a way of squelching needed ideas, but right now the Democrats desperately need to become reacquainted with the concept. Disagreeing with the party is one thing; acting like an opposition member is something else entirely.

They should stop treating him like the courtesy member of the Democratic Party that he is, and cut the sole member of the Connecticut Party for Joe Lieberman loose to drift indignantly where he will.

Connecticut's Democrats did try to dump him. His re-election in '06 was due to a majority of Connecticut Republicans voting for him. Hey! Bi-partisanship!

I'm wondering if this just isn't the first sign of Michael Corleone that we're seeing in Obama. Keeping his friends close and his enemies closer. Throwing JoeMentum a bone so later, he can put the squeeze on him if need be. One can only hope.

Lance, thank you. I find it interesting that many of the "wild eyed leftist commie" bloggers of fevered conservative day and nightmares, have been willing to talk compromise. Take away his chairmanship and let him stay. Normally, I'm for conciliation and compromise when honorable. However, I'm with you on this one. The Democratic party has been spineless and clueless for too long. This is a moment to finally say "enough."

I'd rather have his vote on healthcare reform than the satisfaction of punishing him. He deserves to be punished, but I want the legislation more than I want revenge.

Playing devil's advocate: why is loyalty to the party considered a greater obligation than one's own principles? Stepping out of cynic's shoes for a brief second, if Sen. Lieberman truly had reservations / qualms / issues about President Clinton and honestly believes Sen. McCain would have been a better president, should he have not said anything because he is a registered Democrat? Don't we all snicker and find it distasteful when [insert name of Republican hack] defends whatever President Bush did that week based purely on party affiliation?

Not following the party line is annoying and disruptive and sleazy and spiteful but if that's his greatest sin, I can live with it. I am more concerned with Representatives molesting underage boys, politicians of all kinds taking legal bribes from lobbyists, our general failure to admit the degree we are destroying the environment, general apathy to the fact that one out of five (might have the wrong number here) kids in this country goes to bed hungry every night, and so on. Not following party's orders seems fairly insignificant to numerous other issues out there.

To all commenters - be gentle on the Ox here. I don't want to be put in the position to defend Sen. Lieberman because I am not a fan. But I would like to think that a person could follow some set of ethics, even if he / she does not on regular basis. Is it possible he was calling it as he saw it? And yes, I know the first 10 responses will be about Sen. Lieberman's inconsistencies and his "following principles" act only when it suits him. But isn't that better than being a party hack?

Ox, from my observations over the past eight years, Lieberman practices what's usually sneered at as "moral relativism" or "situational ethics." In other words, unlike Charlie Wilson of GM, who famously said he had for years felt that what was good for GM was good for the country and vice versa.

In Lieberman's case, what's good for Joe is good for Joe, and to hell with whether it's good for the country or his party.

Ox, I don't actually have a problem with someone following their principles, even in cases when to do so is to run against the party - indeed, one rather wishes more people had departed from the GOP during the last few years.

But, on the other hand, I don't think that the _party_ should reward such behavior, unless it is obvious that the principled stand is in fact such, and the principles are in line with the party's own ideals.

Lieberman's been trying to have it both ways - adopting the mantle of "principle" when it advances his own case, then running back to the party when they threaten to take away his privileges. That's not actually standing on principle; that's being an opportunist. Eventually, they should just follow through on that threat and force him to decide whether he really is a Democrat, principled or no.

(Compare Jeffers, for example, who fell out with the GOP over principle - and went independent instead of sacrificing those principles.)

Ox,

A political party is a collection of people who make compromises with each other in order to boost their chances of actually accomplishing things. Now, obviously, everyone has principles, and obviously everyone has lines they won't cross, even if the party says otherwise. But if you're constantly finding yourself in positions opposed to the party, the honourable thing to do is to leave the party. I personally agree with Lance that Lieberman's out for himself and his vanity, but bending over backwards to be charitable to him, if he really has found himself on the side of the moralizers during the Clinton imbroglio, then with the Republicans during one phase of the Florida recount (when he was on the ticket, for cripes sake) then with Bush after 9/11 and in Iraq and finally with McCain during the last election purely as a result of his deeply held principles, then he owes it to himself and to the Democratic Party to leave. Instead, he's doing everything he can to ingratiate himself with the Democrats now, purely so he can hang on to his preferred committee chairmanship. It's worth noting, incidentally, that even if you disagree with me about his obligations to "himself and the Democratic Party," it's really quite dishonourable to complain about punishment for defying the party line. If Lieberman earnestly believed that John McCain was the man who had to be President for the country's sake, then he shouldn't be complaining when following his principles has consequences.

I should note that I'm from Canada, where we have a much, much stronger party system. That said, I honestly can't believe that there's a sizable portion-possibly a large majority-of the Democratic Senate caucus that seems willing to let him entirely off the hook. I mean, why isn't Daniel Akaka, who as I understand it would take over the chair if Lieberman got bounced, organizing against him? I can tell you this: if a Canadian MP endorsed the leader of another party, he would be kicked out of caucus immediately, and would almost certainly never get back in. But the Democrats seem unlikely to take such a piddling retaliatory measure as giving Lieberman a less desirable chairmanship, let alone doing something serious. I don't get it.

NO on the update. The closer they get to 60, the more they need Liarman to caucus with the Republicans.

Think it through: 60 is "the Democrats have a filibuster-proof majority." The problem is that is ONLY true is the Democrats and those aligned with them vote as a bloc.

I can't scream this enough: letting him caucus is no guarantee he will VOTE with you.

So the meme for the next two years (the first half of which would only be true if G-d liked me more than She does) is "the Democrats have a filibuster-proof majority, but still can't get [insert bill description] through to President Obama."

You want 60, you need 60 actual Democrats. Ben "the King should get what he wants" Nelson is bad enough (though if he is consistent—not the way to bet—he won't be a problem). Liarman will backstab the party, and dare them to do something about him.

Knowing that, in this case, keep your Enemy Far Far Away.

I'm with Ken--Lieberman's vote is simply not to be counted upon.

Add to that another argument I find pretty persuasive: Lieberman's not the only "Democratic" vote that isn't 100% reliable [on health care or whatever]. For any other Senator whose allegiance to the Dem caucus on the topic of the day is shaky [whether because of principles or vanity], letting Joe keep his position after what he's done is an open invitation for them to blackmail Reid too. Giving in to Lieberman makes hitting 60 even more difficult, not less so.

bn

If they get to 60 seats, I say dump Lieberman any way.

I'd work on Susan Collins or Olympia Snowe to defect. Promise them no opposition in the Democratic primary if they switch and plenty of political cover (it's Maine, they'll understand anyway)

Playing devil's advocate: why is loyalty to the party considered a greater obligation than one's own principle

It's not, util you start holding party perks over the heads of the party in order to have your cake and eat it too.

Lieberman has threatened to walk if he is stripped of his committee chairmanships. Loyalty works both ways. Now, his voting record suggests he woudl support Obama's stated agenda by about 90%. It's the 10% that he might disagree with that's going to make the difference.

Specifically, health care. What state does he represent? Connecticut.

What state is the national headquarters for nearly every major health insurance company?

Connecticut.

He will never support a national health care program that works to the detriment of the people who put him in office and so we cannot count on his vote. End of story.

All the arguments for keeping Lieberman say that Democrats shouldn't antagonize him so that he won't vote against them.

Think about this. Lieberman breaks numerous promises about how he'd vote, campaign, throw support, etc. He as good as calls the Senator who saved his senate seat a Marxist and a terrorist sympathizer. He (or his apologist) claims that he HAD TO, because of his Principles. But now the Democrats can't take away his very high privelege of a committee chairmanship because they can't afford to piss him off?

In other words, so long as they let him commit tactical betrayals, this Principled man will vote with them against his Principles?

Even if he keeps the chairmanship, who says he'll vote for Democratic initiatives? Who can trust him not to abuse** the power that comes with controlling a vital committee?

When has he EVER kept a promise he later finds inconvenient to his ego?

Besides, the only vote they can count on with Lieberman is the first one, on which caucus controls the Senate, and they only need 50 of them.

If the Senate Democrats are so worried about preserving every seat then they should have yanked his chairmanship when it became clear he'd campaign for for down-ticket candidates. If Reid had creditably threatened at the time, Lieberman would have folded like the opportunistic weasle he is, and we might not be waiting on pins and needles for the Minnesota recount.


** Correction - make that "continue to abuse the power that comes with controlling a vital committee." In an administration as infested with corruption, law-breaking and outright war crimes as Bush's, the committee in charge of investigating ... wouldn't. Who wants to guess that Chairman Lieberman will do a complete turn-about on Obama and investigate every typo and misplaced paperclip as though it was the Watergate break-in?

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